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Not again! Someone make it stop!

This is a discussion on Not again! Someone make it stop! within the Sportbikes forums, part of the Types of Bikes category; First, I'd like to say I never intended to take up the role of naysayer. Some have accused me of ...


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Old 12-06-2006   #1
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Default Not again! Someone make it stop!

First, I'd like to say I never intended to take up the role of naysayer. Some have accused me of being against all of these modern day dreamers because I'm afraid they will steal Harley's sales or make them look bad. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I actually like the idea of a thriving American motorcycle industry that can take on the world, and I have been very supportive of Victory's efforts so far.

But I received my latest issue of CW yesterday, and once again, they have decided to bang the drum for another great American forlorn hope. The Czysz C1 is the name of the latest Wunderbiken, and in it's favor, it's not just another deal where they whip up a frame and some fancy bodywork and then hit the parts catalogs and engine suppliers for the rest of the bike, as Indian, Vincent, Fischer, and Roehrich did. The C1 is a real, designed from scrach ground-breaking design, in the spirit of John Britten. But unfortunately, Czysz's goals are even loftier, and thus, even less likely to come true.

The problem has been that when many talk about their desire to see another competitive American company, what they really mean is they want to see an American company build a bike that will blow the hottest Japanese bikes out of the water, and sell it for $10,000! Might as well wish for free sex and nickel beer, it's far more likely. Instead, we have had some that tried to make it on the strength of a great old name (E-H, Indian, Vincent), and others that have had great intentions, but ended up setting for something more commercially viable, meaning, cheaper to build, in an attempt to look more believeable to potential investors, not that it has helped them (Fischer, Roehrich).

In truth, no plan looks that good in the present economic environment. If you chose to build a cruiser you face the might of Harley, and if you chose a sport bike, you face the even more hopeless task of beating the Japanese at their own game. But, much as I hate to say it, Czysz's plan seems the craziest of all, he is going to try to take on the fastest bikes in the world in MotoGP! Right! He should talk to other companies who have been trying that with no victories, in spite of multi-million dollar investments, companies like Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Aprilia.

And of course, like all the others, he needs investors, (cough) funny how we keep hearing that refrain! My take, another total fantasy and waste of magazine space. I'd rather have seen a road test, though it was better than the chopper article. I do believe in Kenny Dreer, because his plan seems sane and possible, and though he isn't trying to build a world-beater, what he is trying to build makes alot more sense to me.
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Old 12-07-2006   #2
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Default Not again! Someone make it stop!

A lot of expensive machine work and detail goes into those Japanese bikes. He had better do it, because he loves it and not for the money.
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Old 12-07-2006   #3
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Default Not again! Someone make it stop!

Hell I'm still waiting for the Fischer to materialize. Then again I wont pay $10K for what is basically a full bodied SV650.
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Old 12-08-2006   #4
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Default Not again! Someone make it stop!

Where the C1 falls down, imo, is the styling. The front end is too high, the rear end too low.

Shallow, right? No. Motorcycles are an emotional purchase; you have to LOVE it. The C1 borders on ugly.

I dig the front suspension. I'm intrigued by the contra-rotating engine, and I'm just a bit skeptical of the rear suspension.

IF... big if... the front end is as wonderful as the writers would have you believe, then it might be able to do well on a handling course like Laguna Seca. However, going into ANY race with as many unproven elements as this C1, there are thousands of parts on this bike that could fail and take it out of the running.

Personally, I hope the guy succeeds. I hope it pushes Erik Buell in the same direction (I know he's got the brains, but he needs to be pushed further than H-Ds engine catalog). I hope it means the Fischer will abandon the cheap Chinese (or was it Korean?) 650 twin knockoff engine, and instead get a REAL motor for their beautiful bike.

There's no reason why an American sportbike shouldn't exist. Well, the only real reason has to do with economics. For the same reason that you don't see Triumph Daytona 600/650s on every street corner, you won't see an American sportbike on every street corner; the Japanese are able to put out a technically, if not visually and tactilely, superior product at a lower price.

Lastly, I hope to GOD that Czysz doesn't go after the mid level market as stated in the article. If there was EVER a market more dependent on price point vs perceived perfoamence than the supersport 600 market, then I haven't found it.
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Old 12-08-2006   #5
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Default Not again! Someone make it stop!





The only thing I don't really like is the clutch location....seems like a bad place for such a critical piece.
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Old 12-08-2006   #6
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Default Not again! Someone make it stop!

It has neat ideas , which are cool , but it means that he is blazing his own path for R&D and neither the engineers or riders will have baselines from which to work with : eg , how exactly do you tune the suspension vs conventional Ohlins units . OTOH , bikes designed around proven tech haven't exactly set the world alight : the Protons . Petronas and so on . Maybe he's on to something - time will tell and I wish him luck .

The styling is bad - if so much effort has been put into the chassis , why not do something other than combine an R1 fairing ( that does seem quite high ) with a 999 tail ?
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Old 12-08-2006   #7
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Default Not again! Someone make it stop!

joel647 said:
The styling is bad - if so much effort has been put into the chassis , why not do something other than combine an R1 fairing ( that does seem quite high ) with a 999 tail ?

I was about to say it reminds me of a 636, R1, and that Jet bike all at the same time :confused

The forks look pretty cool though :D
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Old 12-09-2006   #8
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that's not bordering on ugly, it's clear over the line. it looks like a bad pocketbike version of a daytona.
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Old 12-09-2006   #9
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XLCR said:

In truth, no plan looks that good in the present economic environment. If you chose to build a cruiser you face the might of Harley, and if you chose a sport bike, you face the even more hopeless task of beating the Japanese at their own game. But, much as I hate to say it, Czysz's plan seems the craziest of all, he is going to try to take on the fastest bikes in the world in MotoGP!

I disagree:D Actually there is a paragraph about not trying to beat the japanese by improving existing technology, but creating new ways of doing things. I think the bike itself is amazing (if it works as well as they say). Even if this model is a failure these components could find their way into our garages.

And to not like the bike because of how it looks is kind of missing the point. :shrug
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Old 12-09-2006   #10
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Default Not again! Someone make it stop!

It wasn't me that remarked on the looks, it doesn't look too bad to me, though I don't think the color does much for it. I understand what he is trying to do by avoiding existing tech, much as Buell is doing, building something different. But I think that strategy works better on the street than the track. There is a reason Japanese racers have little new tech, and the same for their race replicas. Major changes mean more variables. When a team arrives at a race track, there is already a host of variables to be dealt with during set up. The classic rule of designing racers is, "simplify, then add lightness". An all new and complex design like this will have an almost infinite number of new variables to figure out, and if there are problems it will be hard to even figure out where to begin.

Take the Ducati GP bike this last year as an example. The first year bike was a winner, but then they got too ambitious and changed too much. As a result it took them most of the season to figure the new bike out. The Japanese are old hands at this and that's why their changes usually consist of little more than a few more HP and and few less Lbs. That way they are working with a maximum of known factors and a mimimum of new ones, making success far more likely. With this bike, it's not just the handling unknowns, it's also as SS mentioned, there are a few thousand new and unproven parts on this bike, anyone of which could fail, and the likelihood is that at least one of them will. And you can't win if you don't finish.
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